Avengers: Endgame

ShineCero

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Discussion on the upcoming movie. This will contain spoilers so if you don’t want to be spoiled, don’t look in this thread.
 
Who’s going to the premiere showing? I’m planning on checking it out on Friday or Saturday.
 
Just got back from the film. This is one of the most intense film of the year.

If you don't want to be spoiled, don't read this thread! Thanks!

Anyways, everything about it was great. It sucks that my hearing aid died halfway through, but I managed to make the gist of things by reading lips and the sound was just right enough to pick up noises.


The time travel concept, I thought was pretty good. It wasn't confusing, nor bullshitted through. Captain America's end was a bit mucky, but it wasn't that much of a problem where it became a distraction. Nebula's character is definitely a highlight in this entire film. It was witty, it was clever and it delivered on what it build up to be. I also like how Thanos destroyed the stones and he was done with it, basically laughing at the heroes's failure even more. 

Pepper being Iron-Man was fucking awesome. 

I'm trying to think of something that I dislike, and honestly, it be hard press to find such. I'm going to watch the film again with the rest of my family, so maybe I can pick things up again (this time, with batteries filled). 

Iron-Man's death was tragic. I was actually expecting Captain America to kick the bucket (his payoff was great too), but this was a surprise. Only thing I would add is Tony kissing Pepper one last time before he croaks. 

Thanos had evolved further after seeing what he had accomplished in the future and took measures to make sure he doesn't fuck up. I like how older timeline Nebula tried so hard to impressed Thanos, even when confronted that her fate when other Nebula explained to her, her mind was so dead on set that she refuses to believe anything, even from her ownself. That was a powerful moment for it.

There were several scenes that was purely fucking awesome. Captain America's holding Thor's hammer was fucking pure kino. Cap saying "Avengers! Assemble!" was also fucking great. The scene with all the heronies in one scene was pyre fucking kino.

Captain Marvel finally felt like how Captain Marvel should be. A fucking godly force and laying down some shit. When Thanos punched her and couldn't do shit at first, I thought that was awesome. But he quickly caught on and took the power stone out and smacked her away was great composition. 

So many things to unpack this, but I think I ran my mouth long enough. What did you guys think?
 
This probably the first movie that honestly, blew me away. I was completely floored the other night when I first saw it, and have now seen it a second time. So many things to talk about, which I'll jump in on depending on the discussion.

I suppose I'll start with the only real criticism I can give on the film: the female Avengers assembling moment. Which don't get me wrong: I actually liked the idea of it and it still was a great moment.

However, I personally felt like the actual reasoning and execution of it was just so awkward and forced. A massive battle is raging on for about a mile wide in every direction, but all the female Avengers assemble from what they're doing with no actual reasoning (IE, Wasp abandoning Ant Man in the van doesn't really make sense), to help Captain Marvel in a situation where she actually needs zero help considering she can casually stomp Thano's entire army, along with Thanos himself.

Infinity War did it better, where Black Widow and Okoye coming to aid Scarlett Witch in the middle of the fight was definitely more believable, injecting the feminism into the plot without trying to force some ulterior goal. Felt kind of like another example of a horrible execution in fanfiction, like getting Batman and Superman to stop hating one another and become somewhat friendly over their mom's having the same first name.

That being said, my actual reaction to the moment wasn't negative. It was more, "uhh, alright, idk why this is happening but I'll roll with it.", and then was definitely forgotten with the bit involving Pepper, Valkyrie and Scarlett Witch blasting Thanos with a triple energy beam that was a glorious call back to their male "counterparts" blasting Ultron in Age of Ultron. That moment was flawless in execution.

So yeah, thought I'd leave that on the table, given that I personally have no idea where to start with all the glorious things this movie did other than the one "negative" I saw. Probably one of my favorite moments would have to go to Howard Stark getting parenting advice from Tony, who gets to indirectly bond with his dad.
 
Vegetto said:
This probably the first movie that honestly, blew me away. I was completely floored the other night when I first saw it, and have now seen it a second time. So many things to talk about, which I'll jump in on depending on the discussion.

I suppose I'll start with the only real criticism I can give on the film: the female Avengers assembling moment. Which don't get me wrong: I actually liked the idea of it and it still was a great moment.

However, I personally felt like the actual reasoning and execution of it was just so awkward and forced. A massive battle is raging on for about a mile wide in every direction, but all the female Avengers assemble from what they're doing with no actual reasoning (IE, Wasp abandoning Ant Man in the van doesn't really make sense), to help Captain Marvel in a situation where she actually needs zero help considering she can casually stomp Thano's entire army, along with Thanos himself.

Infinity War did it better, where Black Widow and Okoye coming to aid Scarlett Witch in the middle of the fight was definitely more believable, injecting the feminism into the plot without trying to force some ulterior goal. Felt kind of like another example of a horrible execution in fanfiction, like getting Batman and Superman to stop hating one another and become somewhat friendly over their mom's having the same first name.

That being said, my actual reaction to the moment wasn't negative. It was more, "uhh, alright, idk why this is happening but I'll roll with it.", and then was definitely forgotten with the bit involving Pepper, Valkyrie and Scarlett Witch blasting Thanos with a triple energy beam that was a glorious call back to their male "counterparts" blasting Ultron in Age of Ultron. That moment was flawless in execution.

So yeah, thought I'd leave that on the table, given that I personally have no idea where to start with all the glorious things this movie did other than the one "negative" I saw. Probably one of my favorite moments would have to go to Howard Stark getting parenting advice from Tony, who gets to indirectly bond with his dad.

I think that is one of my favorite bits of the entire film. The concept of time-travel was straight-forward, even when they touch upon the multiverse theory and easy to keep track. Howard and Tony’s scene was powerful, but I felt the Nebula’s scene was even more incredible. Karen Gillan was god-damn phenomenal in her role. She was mean, cold, and yet, she still had a moment of clarity. It was gut-busting laughing how she admits the paper football was fun, but she was still hard-pressed about it. When Guardian the Galaxy 3 hits, honestly, move over Gamora, it’s Quill and Nebula time, and they’re about to make a quasar happen.

I also like to draw out the scene where they emphasis Tony Stark’s death. The long, dead stare was brilliant. They want to gut the audience that yeah, “this man is dead, that’s it for him. He’s done for.”

Even though the audiences knew deep down, the moment Tony used the stones, he’s a goner, but there was a simmering of hope that the audience left with. Nah, the Russo brothers kept punching you in the gut until you accepted his death.

I also feel bad for Quill. Finally, he got Gamora, but it’s not the Gamora he knows. So, in hindsight, he lost her all over again. Most likely in the third film, he will probably have a more negative personality (based on the comics). 

Captain America lifting up the hammer is the best damn thing in this entire movie. The combo, the strikes, the power behind it. It was thrilling and shockingly awesome. I can’t even process my mind when I saw that scene laid out like that.
 
First of all, get ready, this is gonna be a real essay. I've never felt the need to write this much about a movie so it was a pretty good one. XD


I loved the movie, it came super close to Infinity War for me. The reason I prefer IW is because it had such a despairful ending and the other characters were more interesting to me than the ones focused  on in Endgame.

ANYWAYS, back to Endgame..
The first 15 minutes already threw away all my expectations and i absolutely loved that!!
 Seeing the characters cope with the situation for 5 year was really interesting to see. Most of them couldn't accept the change and weren't really able to move on. (Which is an odd message to send to the public tho....) I also wasn’t expecting captain marvels role to be so small.. but it makes sense..she’s just too overpowered haha. Same goes for Thor but they gave him a reason to not be powerful as you can see yourself in the movie. XD

Then the part where they gathered the Infinity stones reminded me of the dragon balls xD.
I found it odd they didnt take more time to plan everything out.... why didn't Nebula tell them about the soul stone requirement?? Speaking of that, Widows sacrifice in theory was super sad but
I couldn't feel much for it cus I never liked her character.. All I can say is that she was a pitiful character. Losing her "family" falling apart, only to sacrifice herself to get them back but not getting to see them again... Sad. I wish I liked her more so I could feel the emotions more..but I was mostly just shocked they actually went and killed her off haha.

Then the main fight... Oh my god Captain stole the show right there!! Super cool to see that. I was in awe!! Like Damnnnn he worthyyyy
And when everyone came through the portals I was ecstatic!,
And the part where Doctor strange gave that 1 sign to Iron Man was so powerful... I really was expecting Captain America to sacrifice himself so I didn’t expect Iron Man to bite the dust..so heroic rip :’(

Also loved Captain Marvels overpoweredness, but not her hairstyle. Did you know she shot Endgame before doing Captain Marvel 2019??


Antman,Thor and Hulk comedy was gold. Everyone in the cinema was laughing so hard at their scenes it was really fun. XD I really liked they kept Thor fat throughout the movie. He went through so much and to see him coping that way was realistic.

@"Vegetto"  : I think that scene was thrown in as a fanservice for in the last final fight. For the female Avenger fans! The movie had so many callbacks and references it was all for fanservice, so i really enjoyed seeing all the girls gather under the oh so powerful Marvel, as another fanservice for the girl fans. XD

So about the three main losses:

- Widows sacrifice was sad, but she fulfilled her goal of bringing the people she loves back.

- Ironman: got rid of his guilt about Spiderman, lived the life he wanted for 5 years and saved the world and even got to talk to his dad. → fulfilling life

- captain America: also fulfilled his life by going back to Peggy. I’m glad he did..I always felt so bad for him about that..glad he got his happy ending haha

So they all got a fulfilling ending which was a nice closure for them and for me. XD 



Still the fact that they showed Captain America and Black Widow weren’t  able to move on from a big problem felt like an odd message to send to the public. Of course it’s realistic and not necessarily bad.. I didn’t expect them to show this type of message..especially from heroes. Which was also interesting to see.

Well those were my rambles..and yeah.. loved the movie! And I have a lot to say about it in general. XD
 
Yeah, I agreed that the all the female avengers wasn't a shot at feminism, but it's more like a treat to female fans who supported and stayed with this series throughout the years. I guess it would be work as less awkward in a sense, but it's was great xD

Also, I just realized something.

2014 Gamora is still technically part of Thanos' army, so shouldn't she get dusted as well? :thonk:
 
Right, what I'm getting at about the whole moment was that I personally disliked it because it was exactly that: forced fan service. It is feminism because it's iterating one of the key ideologies of the belief: women sticking up for one another. Great idea, fun moment for sure, but I think it was too forced and lacked any sort of logical flow to it like other moments in the MCU such as the Infinity War version of the scene and the triple team blast on Thanos.

In the first example of Infinity War, it's basically capturing the entire value of the moment ("She's not alone") and doing it in a manner that feels like it belongs in the story. Fan service, extensive hype, accomplishing the moral of women empowering other women, but done in a manner where it fits well. The triple beam blast on Thanos also does it well: Pepper and Valkyrie are shown working together to help Spider-Man while Scarlett is driven to beat down Thanos. Meaning those three coming together isn't a stretch at all. All three working together to blast him in a manner that calls back to Age of Ultron where their male counterparts are doing almost the exact thing, is a special little gem that isn't forcing you to recognize it, but if you pick up on it, it's tugs at the emotional strings. Making it great execution in story telling.

So yeah, I personally like the notion of them attempting to keep that, "women working together to lift themselves up" feminism play that started in Infinity War. It just felt extremely forced and cheap to where I remember almost cringing with the, "uh ok..i'll roll with it i guess" thought in my head. Which in my opinion, is part of why "fan service" shouldn't be an excuse for flawed writing; everything is technically fan service in fictional works like this. It's just more in the execution of it that makes a huge difference as to whether it feels fantastic, IE of all the Avengers showing up to fight Thanos' army. Or (in my opinion), moments like that female Avengers assembly that tried to obviously give something for fans but didn't really feel like it belonged in the story.

But fr, the Iron Man ending there:

"I am inevitable."

> snaps fingers, nothing happens.

>Iron Man shows his gauntlet, has all five stones.

"And I...am..."

> omfg, tony have mercy-

"Iron Man."

[video=youtube]
 
Has anybody managed to get tickets to see it a second time around? My theater is getting booked to the brim everytime.

I really, really love how they did with Thor in this film. It caught me off by surprise, but they nailed his characterization in this. I really looking forward to see his adventures with the Guardians of the Galaxy!
 
My primary problem with the Feminism moment in the movie is just Wasp being there when she really should've been at the van with Scott. I don't think it would've been so glaring otherwise, as that part just violates the logic of the film.

I also really didn't like Marvel being the one to take down Thanos' flagship on the basis that there was no set up for it. It was basically the Han Solo ex-machina of Star Wars where character confirmed to not be around suddenly shows up to save the heroes. On the other hand, Marvel's cold, impersonal handling of affairs made her boring in the film but awesome to watch. I feel like that Scarlet Witch could've replaced Marvel for everything except the opening but, that's probably just because I don't like Captain Marvel.
 
So, it looks like Endgame had defeated Avatar as the highest grossing movie, I think. And since the DVD is coming out, we will see all sort of deleted scenes.

I did managed to see a part where they shown off Gamora being alive and everyone taking a knee for Iron-Man. I can see why they deleted it since this scene and the funeral scene might've been redundant. On the other hand, perhaps, it would been better to leave it in since so many people were confused if Gamora was still around or not.

The Russo Brothers stated that they intended for 2014 Thanos to arrived in the Future with Captain America's head. Had they added that in, that would be a real shocker, if not straight amazing moment in the film (along with making a slight difference between 2014 Thanos and Infinity War Thanos).
 
I ain't even mad about them topping Avatar (even though Disney technically owns Avatar right)... the ongoing joke is that everyone remembers Avatar was a movie with blue aliens but can't name a single character or recall its plot entirely. So maybe it's a good thing Endgame is the highest grossing movie even if they also rereleased it in theatres...

Apparently the whole time travel shenanigans confused some people and I guess Clint stating that the Soul Stone sacrifice was permanent wasn't sufficient. It also clearly isn't the Gamora that loved Quill, she literally thought he was some random fucko. Lol

What did throw me off a bit was that they kinda glossed over the fact Nat was gone compared to Tony... thats the impression I got but that is just a wee nitpick.

Loki and Vision are certainly dead for good though, although there is potential to chase an alternate timeline movie for Loki with the Tesseract but idk... a multiverse MCU with multiple parallel universes seems to work better for comics rather than movies
 
We just have to see how they handle with it in Doctor Strange 2: Multiverse in Madness, which no doubt, going to be extremely balls to the wall crazy. Especially since Wanda will be there as well.

Disney+ did announced a series of alternate Loki doing his adventures throughout the universe. I wonder he'll be a key factor in Doctor Strange 2 :think: 

Endgame has pretty much set the standard. I wonder if the next crossover event will surpassed this one?
 
I have high expectations for Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy storyline...
I saw some fans say it was a bit disappointing the way they kind of un-did Thor's development in Ragnarok overtime with IW and EG, but in all fairness I feel like it's necessary to have at least one hero end up like he did in the 5-year gap. Poor dude basically collapsed himself in a pit of depression because all the failure culminated into making him think he's completely worthless: his brother was strangled in front of him right after facing their evil sister, dozens of Asgardians died, he watched almost all his friends disintegrate and the other 4 billion people on Earth went with them; all because he simply used his opportunity 'incorrectly' and couldn't kill Grimace the Mad Titan the first time. And clearly, beheading him 5 years later in some random space hut didn't make him feel any better about it because at that moment they thought there was no possibility of reversing everything now that their timeline's stones were gone.

But the movie tied off basically every loose end that needed to be ended before seeking a different direction with the MCU. Not really sure how they can top off their own thing... how much of a grander scale can we go after IW and Endgame!? lol

If you read the comics, don't tell me because that's no fun
 
LoopyPanda said:
Loki and Vision are certainly dead for good though, although there is potential to chase an alternate timeline movie for Loki with the Tesseract but idk... a multiverse MCU with multiple parallel universes seems to work better for comics rather than movies

They announced Vision and Scarlet Witch are getting their own tv show. Even the Vision is confused. Alongside the Loki tv show Shine mentioned.

Spin offs for the dead guys!

ShineCero said:
Disney+ did announced a series of alternate Loki doing his adventures throughout the universe. I wonder he'll be a key factor in Doctor Strange 2 :think: 

Endgame has pretty much set the standard. I wonder if the next crossover event will surpassed this one?

I don't know if Loki will be a part of Doctor Strange 2 considering that Wanda and Vision is apparently building up to said movie. It's possible, though.

The next crossover event will be difficult to surpass this one. For one, a decade of movies, a story line eleven years long, and character deaths that took the finale from merely "awesome" to "amazing." Infinity War and Endgame would not be as memorable without the deaths of Loki, Vision, Peter Parker, Thanos, Iron Man, Captain America, and Thanos. Real, lasting impact is what made it so poignant.

LoopyPanda said:
I have high expectations for Thor and the Guardians of the Galaxy storyline...
I saw some fans say it was a bit disappointing the way they kind of un-did Thor's development in Ragnarok overtime with IW and EG, but in all fairness I feel like it's necessary to have at least one hero end up like he did in the 5-year gap. Poor dude basically collapsed himself in a pit of depression because all the failure culminated into making him think he's completely worthless: his brother was strangled in front of him right after facing their evil sister, dozens of Asgardians died, he watched almost all his friends disintegrate and the other 4 billion people on Earth went with them; all because he simply used his opportunity 'incorrectly' and couldn't kill Grimace the Mad Titan the first time. And clearly, beheading him 5 years later in some random space hut didn't make him feel any better about it because at that moment they thought there was no possibility of reversing everything now that their timeline's stones were gone.

But the movie tied off basically every loose end that needed to be ended before seeking a different direction with the MCU. Not really sure how they can top off their own thing... how much of a grander scale can we go after IW and Endgame!? lol

If you read the comics, don't tell me because that's no fun

I am highly excited for Guardians 3.

Thor's character development wasn't really undone. I haven't heard anyone say that myself, but looking at it. Is Thor the same as he was in previous movies? Only if you deliberately wrongly characterize him. In Thor 1 / Avengers 1 he's brash, overly self-confident, speaks in an old timey accent and words, and all too self assured of his own power and all of his traits stem from that overwhelming amount of power. In Endgame, he's brash, overly self-confident, speaks in an old timey accent and words, and all too self assured of his own power. Except all of those traits come from the fact he completely broke down from his depression and the absolute loss he suffered at the hands of Thanos. No one took it as personally as Thor did. Why did Thor offer to use the Iron Gauntlet as "the strongest Avenger?" Because he's trying to act like his old, overconfident self in an attempt to cope with the immense grief he has, rather than truly believing he's capable of withstanding the power of the Infinity Stones.

So he's back to his old self, but only as a hollow mockery in trying to conceal how he really is after losing basically everything. So, he wasn't reset to an earlier version of his character. Next question is, was his character development undone? He kept all of the lessons he learned from Thor 3: Ragnarok. He didn't forget that. He remembered to think, to fight smart, and to be truly confident in himself rather than his power and weapons. Other Avengers make fat jokes about him? He simply doesn't care, he doesn't let other people affect him like that. In Thor 1, he went and fought a war and got banished entirely because he wanted to be awesome through bloodshed like his dad. In Endgame, he doesn't even acknowledge the jokes people make about him. In Thor 2 and 3, he refuses to take the throne not only because he doesn't believe he's worthy of it, but because he wants to be better than a king could be because of the awful decisions and reliability they need. in Endgame, he leaves the throne in the hands of Valkyrie specifically because she's not only better qualified, but also because she has truly been their leader while he's been gone. That's something he really learned in Thor 2, and reinforced in Thor 3.

So no, Thor's character development hasn't been undone one bit.

Lastly, nothing could surpass Infinity War and Endgame.
 
I think it's the automatic conclusion that once a character is used as a source for some of the movie's comedic relief, it seems to automatically mean that character won't show the complexities of their character from previous movies regardless of what justifies these notable changes. Which doesn't necessarily seem to be true as far as Endgame goes. I mean, it is a 3 hour movie, do we really need it any longer just to be annoyingly explicit that the events of IW fucked him up enough to get fat and sink into depression? Also, him having a braided beard right as he showed up with everyone else to fight Thanos again was a nice touch. idk why, it was just a detail that didn't have to be there but they put it in as part of his "Starting Over" theme.

Also I can't believe the Hulk dabs. He and Antman should be shown lecturing at a uni in the next avengers movie... Dr. Smart Hulk, PhD....


I'm lowkey kinda sick of "if you want this specific content you'll have to pay for yet another subscription to an entirely different service because we forgot people can and will go back to pirating things if companies decide to dismantle the universal streaming platform known as Netflix for the sake of making more money" so I won't really keep up with any spinoff shows being hosted on Disney+. I'll just torrent it like everything else by the end of 2020 once Netflix gets gutted and left with D-tier movies
 
I have a feeling that WandaVision is take in the past, so it won't be an requirement... or maybe Wanda trying to find a way to revive Vision through other means. In Infinity War, Shuri grabbed something before she was attack by Thanos' army, so perhaps that will be a link to Vision's revival?

The next crossover event will be difficult to surpass this one. For one, a decade of movies, a story line eleven years long, and character deaths that took the finale from merely "awesome" to "amazing." Infinity War and Endgame would not be as memorable without the deaths of Loki, Vision, Peter Parker, Thanos, Iron Man, Captain America, and Thanos. Real, lasting impact is what made it so poignant.

I might have to disagree with that. In this new stage of Marvel, they can easily do another build up of 10 years of storyline with new entries they have gotten. With Eternals starting off the first phase, I have a feeling that Galactus or perhaps, Doctor Doom, will be the next major villain for MCU. The Russo Brothers did comment that they'll love to return a major crossover event if they adapt the secret wars story. I can see them pulling off again with new faces of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

I'm lowkey kinda sick of "if you want this specific content you'll have to pay for yet another subscription to an entirely different service because we forgot people can and will go back to pirating things if companies decide to dismantle the universal streaming platform known as Netflix for the sake of making more money" so I won't really keep up with any spinoff shows being hosted on Disney+. I'll just torrent it like everything else by the end of 2020 once Netflix gets gutted and left with D-tier movies

I get what you mean, but I think that from Disney's perspective, they're simply responding to what the people wanted. Movie Theater attendance had hit an all-time low in 2017. Disney themselves declared that they will only screen Big Movies in Theaters, while everything else will be on their streaming service. And with more studios releasing more movies, people response towards it is general apathy--no longer its the "oh man, it's so great, I need to see it", it's more of "well, I can watch it home when it comes out". In regards to spin-off shows, this is a great tactics for Disney to bring in fans that still want to consume MCU content--and most likely, it won't have an major affect on the film series (i.e. you don't need to watch them to understand future titles). 

Disney+ is about 13 bucks a month. Netflix and other streaming services need to step up their game if they want to be competitive. And that's assuming AT&T and Comcast doesn't fuck over their consumers trying to watch anything on Disney+ by throttling their internet. People complain about Disney being monopoly when they're nothing but peanuts compared to the dominance force of ATT and Comcast who not only have Internet, Cable and Phone services, but have media/entertainment content as well...
 
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