DBX 3: The Tournament of Eternity Discussion Thread
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Hey guys! Kicking off this potential fanfic with another discussion thread here on the forums, but this time, I've decided to do things a little bit differently. In the The Black Rose, I already had a pretty detailed plot of progression planned out for events in a story. A good bit of the story was more of just plugging in characters for realism: to create an atmosphere where readers would feel out the character, then follow their interaction in a plot mostly as they were supposed to act. Rather than a detailed set up of, "this is how character A is going to act, causing an effect in character B that forces this kind of effect to sell a major moral point of X." Basically put, it was all a very "start with a cause" and just write out the effect in a never ending chain of events. Kinda like, "let's roll this ball down a mountain, and the path it takes will be the story."
However, as you can see, The Black Rose is a story that ended up tackling a ton of major ideologies, philosophies, and character developments. Some readers I've found, absolutely loved it. Others, and a very strong portion of them, flat out despised it at many turns and points. Finally, as one reviewer put: "I actually felt like Zamasu was the only one worth rooting for, so I put this down." Which to me, hit home the most: I had done exactly what I had set out to do in my quest to humanize Zamasu a bit more and almost vilify Vegetto in a desire to create this "grey world" that it forced a reader, who was looking to champion the protagonists as role models, to put the story down due to a lack of positive action from those hero characters.
I do not regret this one bit: I am actually thrilled to have created a story that does not exactly champion "right or wrong" while attempting to maintain some elements of DB fun in combat, etc. However, this time around, the goals I have for this story require good writing and planning. Strap in, as I will iron out details for anyone looking to get involved to help me plan chapters better, for whoever has time. Needless to say, it will spoil the story for you if you participate, but you will help me write a better story if you wish to get involved. With that all being said, let's get into things right away!
Main Character Goals:
However, as you can see, The Black Rose is a story that ended up tackling a ton of major ideologies, philosophies, and character developments. Some readers I've found, absolutely loved it. Others, and a very strong portion of them, flat out despised it at many turns and points. Finally, as one reviewer put: "I actually felt like Zamasu was the only one worth rooting for, so I put this down." Which to me, hit home the most: I had done exactly what I had set out to do in my quest to humanize Zamasu a bit more and almost vilify Vegetto in a desire to create this "grey world" that it forced a reader, who was looking to champion the protagonists as role models, to put the story down due to a lack of positive action from those hero characters.
I do not regret this one bit: I am actually thrilled to have created a story that does not exactly champion "right or wrong" while attempting to maintain some elements of DB fun in combat, etc. However, this time around, the goals I have for this story require good writing and planning. Strap in, as I will iron out details for anyone looking to get involved to help me plan chapters better, for whoever has time. Needless to say, it will spoil the story for you if you participate, but you will help me write a better story if you wish to get involved. With that all being said, let's get into things right away!
Main Character Goals:
Kassava
Kassava will be the most challenging aspect of this story, as she is meant to progress in character from where she left off in Black Rose, to match that of Whis in most areas of personality (not all). As the Time God for Universe 7, she will need to play a different role than the ones currently established by the gods in DB. Beerus, IE, is more chaotic neutral because his role is to destroy in order for life to begin. Casual murder is necessary for his role, thus his personality is justifiable. However, history and time is a delicate model where the character model of Whis' intellectual, humble, yet somewhat carefree attitude seems to be an average practice commonly found in most role models in any facet of life. She is meant to fully gain that understanding and knowledge of almost carefree detachment by the end of this story, adopting those Buddhist values and even borderline sociopath tendencies that Whis sometimes displays (IE, casually and happily responding that everyone will be erased when Krillin asks about being late to the TOP as if nothing is wrong).
Her connection to the main cast will be further explained in the plot points that I will mention below.
Her connection to the main cast will be further explained in the plot points that I will mention below.
Vegetto and Gogeta
Fused monkey men here will be almost the same in character dynamic: they are the one venue of character I hope to keep as true to the source material as possible. The goal for Vegetto's story has always been the same: to create a personality that is reminiscent of Goku and Vegeta's combined tendencies, while mostly failing to accommodate to the role as a hero or authority figure. With the new addition of Gogeta to this story, I will attempt to try and bring a chemistry between them that is more reminiscent of Goku and Vegeta. I do not wish for them to turn into Goku and Vegeta clones, yet in order to hit fanservice and create a level of originality that also captures the fun of Goku and Vegeta's antics (basically, one of the biggest aspects of DB that makes it DB), I have decided that I will properly have them rotate in behaviors that are similar to their fusees. IE, Gogeta might do something Gokuish in one scene, but the next, he will be more like "Vegetaish" yelling angrily at Vegetto for acting "Gokuish". Then vice versa.
In their switching of slightly mimicking Goku and Vegeta in their respective roles for certain points in the story, I hope to effectively create nostalgia in their behavior, while also adding the new "blended" personalities as their main behavior for the story. Overall, their objective is more in enjoying the fight for what it is, and letting Kassava take over the job of authority as Time God.
In their switching of slightly mimicking Goku and Vegeta in their respective roles for certain points in the story, I hope to effectively create nostalgia in their behavior, while also adding the new "blended" personalities as their main behavior for the story. Overall, their objective is more in enjoying the fight for what it is, and letting Kassava take over the job of authority as Time God.
Trunks
Trunks is, undoubtedly, put on the backburner for this story. He will be a supporting character in the plot for the tournament, but I am struggling to come up with some ideas for him. Any advice on this would be appreciated.
Marcato
Marcato is the main antagonist for this story. He will be more of a typical, spoiled god that has been around and seen it all. My actual inspiration for his antics as a character is in Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda: a god, raised from birth, to be the perfect authority figure yet goes horribly wrong in misguided selfishness and arrogance. The Grand Priest is personally responsible for his downfall (basically, GP is his "Shifu"), and their connection to each other as characters will be a major plot point.
With that being said, I want these two to be connected in a manner that does not jeopardize the original Grand Priest's demeanor in carefree detachment. See Marcato's Plot Atmosphere point for more on this.
Other than that, Marcato is meant to be exceptionally powerful. He will fight UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta alone, and will win after a very hard fought battle.
Other than that, Marcato is meant to be exceptionally powerful. He will fight UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta alone, and will win after a very hard fought battle.
With those four main characters accounted for, feel free to make any comments regarding changes or ideas that can be tweaked at their cores.
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The Plot
The overall premise of this plot is getting into the notion that the Grand Priest finds value in how Universe 7 won the TOP. Much like the philosophical points Trunks made when defeating Zamasu in the Black Goku arc, the mortals banded together to overcome threats much, much bigger than themselves. First in the case of original Zamasu, then in the Time Patrol defeating the overly powerful reincarnation of Zamasu, and finally, Jiren being toppled by Goku and Frieza.
He encourages the other universes to follow Universe 7's example in the Time Patrol in order to effectively handle the realm of time in each universe, stating it to be an example of why the universe is so successful. Hosting a tournament to force these universes to start selecting worth candidates to make up a Time Patrol, he uses a new plot device (I have yet to come up with the actual item) that can grant any wish beyond even the capabilities of the Super Dragon Balls. However, instead of spending the time given to create teams, the Time Gods of each universe minus 6 and 7, start to turn towards supporting Lord Marcato, who uses the opportunity to convince the other gods to support him in overthrowing the Priest and the Zenos.
Due to my laziness to write more fighters, this means that each universe minus 6 and 7 will feature the Time God as the only opponent in the Tournament. However, they will all work as a team to fight against Universe 7, as Kassava unintentionally becomes the main enemy and target when she refuses to support Marcato. Universe 6 will be allied to Universe 7 in this tournament to a degree, as the Time God of that universe will not only find value in mortal capability: they will copy the mechanic of permanent Vegetto and Gogeta in a permanent Kefla.
Grand Priest, upon realizing the nature of the Time Gods all banding together to stand up to him and Zeno, will allow the tournament to progress in team fights that are organized in "Time God of Universe X will fight the remaining fighters from Universe 7". He will find that the Time Gods banding together in their desperation as a perversion of the values he hoped to teach them from U7's example in the TOP, and thus, won't immediately decide they need to be killed.
So, every fight will progress in a manner like a real bracket style tournament, but if a fighter on U7/U6's team is defeated, they are out for the rest of the tournament. This idea of 10-15 characters versus 1, will allow me to create value for the antagonist in the fight, but also showcase certain individual fighters, as not everyone of the 10-15 will fight at once and it will allow me to dwindle down the cast of protagonists in the progression of advancement.
The story will progress to the point where Marcato is the last one standing, facing off with Kassava, Vegetto, and Gogeta. He will win against all three, UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta vs Marcato being a major climax of a fight to the story, but will prevail. The Grand Priest will admit he cannot defeat Marcato, but another can. The story will wrap up with Vegetto and Gogeta using fusion to become Gogetto, who then kills Marcato in the finale to secure the win in the tournament. Kassava will then wish for the realms of time to be protected from Grand Zeno's childish wrath as a means to earn respect from not only the Grand Priest, but the other Time Gods that will repent for their attempted coup.
He encourages the other universes to follow Universe 7's example in the Time Patrol in order to effectively handle the realm of time in each universe, stating it to be an example of why the universe is so successful. Hosting a tournament to force these universes to start selecting worth candidates to make up a Time Patrol, he uses a new plot device (I have yet to come up with the actual item) that can grant any wish beyond even the capabilities of the Super Dragon Balls. However, instead of spending the time given to create teams, the Time Gods of each universe minus 6 and 7, start to turn towards supporting Lord Marcato, who uses the opportunity to convince the other gods to support him in overthrowing the Priest and the Zenos.
Due to my laziness to write more fighters, this means that each universe minus 6 and 7 will feature the Time God as the only opponent in the Tournament. However, they will all work as a team to fight against Universe 7, as Kassava unintentionally becomes the main enemy and target when she refuses to support Marcato. Universe 6 will be allied to Universe 7 in this tournament to a degree, as the Time God of that universe will not only find value in mortal capability: they will copy the mechanic of permanent Vegetto and Gogeta in a permanent Kefla.
Grand Priest, upon realizing the nature of the Time Gods all banding together to stand up to him and Zeno, will allow the tournament to progress in team fights that are organized in "Time God of Universe X will fight the remaining fighters from Universe 7". He will find that the Time Gods banding together in their desperation as a perversion of the values he hoped to teach them from U7's example in the TOP, and thus, won't immediately decide they need to be killed.
So, every fight will progress in a manner like a real bracket style tournament, but if a fighter on U7/U6's team is defeated, they are out for the rest of the tournament. This idea of 10-15 characters versus 1, will allow me to create value for the antagonist in the fight, but also showcase certain individual fighters, as not everyone of the 10-15 will fight at once and it will allow me to dwindle down the cast of protagonists in the progression of advancement.
The story will progress to the point where Marcato is the last one standing, facing off with Kassava, Vegetto, and Gogeta. He will win against all three, UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta vs Marcato being a major climax of a fight to the story, but will prevail. The Grand Priest will admit he cannot defeat Marcato, but another can. The story will wrap up with Vegetto and Gogeta using fusion to become Gogetto, who then kills Marcato in the finale to secure the win in the tournament. Kassava will then wish for the realms of time to be protected from Grand Zeno's childish wrath as a means to earn respect from not only the Grand Priest, but the other Time Gods that will repent for their attempted coup.
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The Plot's Atmosphere:
Needless to say, there are alot of things going on here that I want to create atmosphere wise to draw a reader in. Let's start with points listed:
-Marcato is very loosely based on Tai Lung: his dynamic to Grand Priest and Kassava is similar to Shifu and Po. He will not have the same problem as Tai Lung in seeking value in confirmation from outside sources to lead to his downfall as a character: he is just meant to be a prideful, arrogant villain that desires to rule everything by removing Grand Zeno from the picture with the wish. He will see Kassava as a disgraceful attempt for the Grand Priest to replace him, but will hold back on this ideology until Kassava openly rejects his request for her support.
-Kassava will reject Marcato's vision in recognizing that he is not truly afraid like the other Time Gods, but realizes that this is the perfect opportunity to have complete control. She will try to persuade the Grand Priest to get rid of him, but the GP will still hold the tournament to test Kassava on if she's worthy of stopping him and because the Time Gods all banding together is sort of what he was trying to teach them in the value of mortals. This can also be changed a bit to, "GP did this solely because he wants to be entertained, and doesn't really worry too much about Marcato winning anyway." to further capture his original source material better.
-The other Time Gods will be mob like mentality towards Kassava and U7 alike. Like the cool kids bullying the new student on the playground, most of the banter will be centered around the notion that Kassava doesn't know of their world and how challenging it is. My idea behind this dynamic is that this will be how Kassava learns not to take things so seriously in becoming more like Whis' demeanor, in seeing them try so hard to stop her yet still prevailing in manners that are not too complex in strategy. Definitely need more feedback on this, would love to hear more ideas.
-U6 will be their only ally, opting to side with Kassava and co. due to the typical "U6 and U7 are buddies" stereotype from DBS. Their bond will come more in how U6's Time God will be like a "Joker" personality: a chaotic character that is a former Destroyer and hasn't fully settled into the prestigious candor of a Time God. His support for her in the tournament will start off purely as just a simple desire to see what happens when he helps the underdog and for the lols, but grows into an almost friendly rivalry with her. His character and bond with Kassava will help her understand that Whis' like mentality better, in how his full on sociopathic, meme ways will help her stay away from the extreme.
-U6's team will consist of the Time God that I have yet to full flesh out character design wise, and Kefla for sure. Kefla will be the character that will bond more with Vegetto and Gogeta, yet their dynamic in understanding each other is still an idea I haven't fully fleshed out and would love more feedback on. I did partly enjoy how Goku almost trained and somewhat mentored Caulifla in the TOP, and wanted to continue that idea in Vegetto and Gogeta mentoring Kefla, who views them more as obstacles to overcome. I'm thinking I'll keep the U6 team to just those two, but I am considering more ideas for a better story.
-Marcato is very loosely based on Tai Lung: his dynamic to Grand Priest and Kassava is similar to Shifu and Po. He will not have the same problem as Tai Lung in seeking value in confirmation from outside sources to lead to his downfall as a character: he is just meant to be a prideful, arrogant villain that desires to rule everything by removing Grand Zeno from the picture with the wish. He will see Kassava as a disgraceful attempt for the Grand Priest to replace him, but will hold back on this ideology until Kassava openly rejects his request for her support.
-Kassava will reject Marcato's vision in recognizing that he is not truly afraid like the other Time Gods, but realizes that this is the perfect opportunity to have complete control. She will try to persuade the Grand Priest to get rid of him, but the GP will still hold the tournament to test Kassava on if she's worthy of stopping him and because the Time Gods all banding together is sort of what he was trying to teach them in the value of mortals. This can also be changed a bit to, "GP did this solely because he wants to be entertained, and doesn't really worry too much about Marcato winning anyway." to further capture his original source material better.
-The other Time Gods will be mob like mentality towards Kassava and U7 alike. Like the cool kids bullying the new student on the playground, most of the banter will be centered around the notion that Kassava doesn't know of their world and how challenging it is. My idea behind this dynamic is that this will be how Kassava learns not to take things so seriously in becoming more like Whis' demeanor, in seeing them try so hard to stop her yet still prevailing in manners that are not too complex in strategy. Definitely need more feedback on this, would love to hear more ideas.
-U6 will be their only ally, opting to side with Kassava and co. due to the typical "U6 and U7 are buddies" stereotype from DBS. Their bond will come more in how U6's Time God will be like a "Joker" personality: a chaotic character that is a former Destroyer and hasn't fully settled into the prestigious candor of a Time God. His support for her in the tournament will start off purely as just a simple desire to see what happens when he helps the underdog and for the lols, but grows into an almost friendly rivalry with her. His character and bond with Kassava will help her understand that Whis' like mentality better, in how his full on sociopathic, meme ways will help her stay away from the extreme.
-U6's team will consist of the Time God that I have yet to full flesh out character design wise, and Kefla for sure. Kefla will be the character that will bond more with Vegetto and Gogeta, yet their dynamic in understanding each other is still an idea I haven't fully fleshed out and would love more feedback on. I did partly enjoy how Goku almost trained and somewhat mentored Caulifla in the TOP, and wanted to continue that idea in Vegetto and Gogeta mentoring Kefla, who views them more as obstacles to overcome. I'm thinking I'll keep the U6 team to just those two, but I am considering more ideas for a better story.
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And that's it guys! The big thing I'm starting off with here is just the basic story elements of things coming together. I still have much more I've probably forgot to put here, but if you see any problems with the visions up there, do feel free to discuss and critique them here.
I plan to eventually post another post regarding the general make up of each chapter, in order to iron out what needs to be fulfilled in action, plot, and atmosphere for the upcoming chapter. It will be the following one in here and will be regularly updated: I plan to fully have a general premise for each chapter before I start to write it out in order for me to effectively tackle the objective of the story better. Rather than just having a general "this is how the plot goes, these are how the characters are supposed to act, let me just make it all happen."
Thanks again for your time guys, and look forward to reading your responses!
I plan to eventually post another post regarding the general make up of each chapter, in order to iron out what needs to be fulfilled in action, plot, and atmosphere for the upcoming chapter. It will be the following one in here and will be regularly updated: I plan to fully have a general premise for each chapter before I start to write it out in order for me to effectively tackle the objective of the story better. Rather than just having a general "this is how the plot goes, these are how the characters are supposed to act, let me just make it all happen."
Thanks again for your time guys, and look forward to reading your responses!
imp: