DBX3: The Tournament of Eternity Discussion

Vegetto

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DBX 3: The Tournament of Eternity Discussion Thread

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Hey guys! Kicking off this potential fanfic with another discussion thread here on the forums, but this time, I've decided to do things a little bit differently. In the The Black Rose, I already had a pretty detailed plot of progression planned out for events in a story. A good bit of the story was more of just plugging in characters for realism: to create an atmosphere where readers would feel out the character, then follow their interaction in a plot mostly as they were supposed to act. Rather than a detailed set up of, "this is how character A is going to act, causing an effect in character B that forces this kind of effect to sell a major moral point of X." Basically put, it was all a very "start with a cause" and just write out the effect in a never ending chain of events. Kinda like, "let's roll this ball down a mountain, and the path it takes will be the story."

However, as you can see, The Black Rose is a story that ended up tackling a ton of major ideologies, philosophies, and character developments. Some readers I've found, absolutely loved it. Others, and a very strong portion of them, flat out despised it at many turns and points. Finally, as one reviewer put: "I actually felt like Zamasu was the only one worth rooting for, so I put this down." Which to me, hit home the most: I had done exactly what I had set out to do in my quest to humanize Zamasu a bit more and almost vilify Vegetto in a desire to create this "grey world" that it forced a reader, who was looking to champion the protagonists as role models, to put the story down due to a lack of positive action from those hero characters.

I do not regret this one bit: I am actually thrilled to have created a story that does not exactly champion "right or wrong" while attempting to maintain some elements of DB fun in combat, etc. However, this time around, the goals I have for this story require good writing and planning. Strap in, as I will iron out details for anyone looking to get involved to help me plan chapters better, for whoever has time. Needless to say, it will spoil the story for you if you participate, but you will help me write a better story if you wish to get involved. With that all being said, let's get into things right away!

Main Character Goals:

Kassava

 Kassava will be the most challenging aspect of this story, as she is meant to progress in character from where she left off in Black Rose, to match that of Whis in most areas of personality (not all). As the Time God for Universe 7, she will need to play a different role than the ones currently established by the gods in DB. Beerus, IE, is more chaotic neutral because his role is to destroy in order for life to begin. Casual murder is necessary for his role, thus his personality is justifiable. However, history and time is a delicate model where the character model of Whis' intellectual, humble, yet somewhat carefree attitude seems to be an average practice commonly found in most role models in any facet of life. She is meant to fully gain that understanding and knowledge of almost carefree detachment by the end of this story, adopting those Buddhist values and even borderline sociopath tendencies that Whis sometimes displays (IE, casually and happily responding that everyone will be erased when Krillin asks about being late to the TOP as if nothing is wrong).

Her connection to the main cast will be further explained in the plot points that I will mention below.

Vegetto and Gogeta

Fused monkey men here will be almost the same in character dynamic: they are the one venue of character I hope to keep as true to the source material as possible. The goal for Vegetto's story has always been the same: to create a personality that is reminiscent of Goku and Vegeta's combined tendencies, while mostly failing to accommodate to the role as a hero or authority figure. With the new addition of Gogeta to this story, I will attempt to try and bring a chemistry between them that is more reminiscent of Goku and Vegeta. I do not wish for them to turn into Goku and Vegeta clones, yet in order to hit fanservice and create a level of originality that also captures the fun of Goku and Vegeta's antics (basically, one of the biggest aspects of DB that makes it DB), I have decided that I will properly have them rotate in behaviors that are similar to their fusees. IE, Gogeta might do something Gokuish in one scene, but the next, he will be more like "Vegetaish" yelling angrily at Vegetto for acting "Gokuish". Then vice versa.

In their switching of slightly mimicking Goku and Vegeta in their respective roles for certain points in the story, I hope to effectively create nostalgia in their behavior, while also adding the new "blended" personalities as their main behavior for the story. Overall, their objective is more in enjoying the fight for what it is, and letting Kassava take over the job of authority as Time God.

Trunks

Trunks is, undoubtedly, put on the backburner for this story. He will be a supporting character in the plot for the tournament, but I am struggling to come up with some ideas for him. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

Marcato

Marcato is the main antagonist for this story. He will be more of a typical, spoiled god that has been around and seen it all. My actual inspiration for his antics as a character is in Tai Lung from Kung Fu Panda: a god, raised from birth, to be the perfect authority figure yet goes horribly wrong in misguided selfishness and arrogance. The Grand Priest is personally responsible for his downfall (basically, GP is his "Shifu"), and their connection to each other as characters will be a major plot point.

With that being said, I want these two to be connected in a manner that does not jeopardize the original Grand Priest's demeanor in carefree detachment. See Marcato's Plot Atmosphere point for more on this.

Other than that, Marcato is meant to be exceptionally powerful. He will fight UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta alone, and will win after a very hard fought battle.​

With those four main characters accounted for, feel free to make any comments regarding changes or ideas that can be tweaked at their cores.

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The Plot

The overall premise of this plot is getting into the notion that the Grand Priest finds value in how Universe 7 won the TOP. Much like the philosophical points Trunks made when defeating Zamasu in the Black Goku arc, the mortals banded together to overcome threats much, much bigger than themselves. First in the case of original Zamasu, then in the Time Patrol defeating the overly powerful reincarnation of Zamasu, and finally, Jiren being toppled by Goku and Frieza.

He encourages the other universes to follow Universe 7's example in the Time Patrol in order to effectively handle the realm of time in each universe, stating it to be an example of why the universe is so successful. Hosting a tournament to force these universes to start selecting worth candidates to make up a Time Patrol, he uses a new plot device (I have yet to come up with the actual item) that can grant any wish beyond even the capabilities of the Super Dragon Balls. However, instead of spending the time given to create teams, the Time Gods of each universe minus 6 and 7, start to turn towards supporting Lord Marcato, who uses the opportunity to convince the other gods to support him in overthrowing the Priest and the Zenos.

Due to my laziness to write more fighters, this means that each universe minus 6 and 7 will feature the Time God as the only opponent in the Tournament. However, they will all work as a team to fight against Universe 7, as Kassava unintentionally becomes the main enemy and target when she refuses to support Marcato. Universe 6 will be allied to Universe 7 in this tournament to a degree, as the Time God of that universe will not only find value in mortal capability: they will copy the mechanic of permanent Vegetto and Gogeta in a permanent Kefla.

Grand Priest, upon realizing the nature of the Time Gods all banding together to stand up to him and Zeno, will allow the tournament to progress in team fights that are organized in "Time God of Universe X will fight the remaining fighters from Universe 7". He will find that the Time Gods banding together in their desperation as a perversion of the values he hoped to teach them from U7's example in the TOP, and thus, won't immediately decide they need to be killed.

So, every fight will progress in a manner like a real bracket style tournament, but if a fighter on U7/U6's team is defeated, they are out for the rest of the tournament. This idea of 10-15 characters versus 1, will allow me to create value for the antagonist in the fight, but also showcase certain individual fighters, as not everyone of the 10-15 will fight at once and it will allow me to dwindle down the cast of protagonists in the progression of advancement.

The story will progress to the point where Marcato is the last one standing, facing off with Kassava, Vegetto, and Gogeta. He will win against all three, UI Vegetto and UI Gogeta vs Marcato being a major climax of a fight to the story, but will prevail. The Grand Priest will admit he cannot defeat Marcato, but another can. The story will wrap up with Vegetto and Gogeta using fusion to become Gogetto, who then kills Marcato in the finale to secure the win in the tournament. Kassava will then wish for the realms of time to be protected from Grand Zeno's childish wrath as a means to earn respect from not only the Grand Priest, but the other Time Gods that will repent for their attempted coup.

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The Plot's Atmosphere:

Needless to say, there are alot of things going on here that I want to create atmosphere wise to draw a reader in. Let's start with points listed:

-Marcato is very loosely based on Tai Lung: his dynamic to Grand Priest and Kassava is similar to Shifu and Po. He will not have the same problem as Tai Lung in seeking value in confirmation from outside sources to lead to his downfall as a character: he is just meant to be a prideful, arrogant villain that desires to rule everything by removing Grand Zeno from the picture with the wish. He will see Kassava as a disgraceful attempt for the Grand Priest to replace him, but will hold back on this ideology until Kassava openly rejects his request for her support.

-Kassava will reject Marcato's vision in recognizing that he is not truly afraid like the other Time Gods, but realizes that this is the perfect opportunity to have complete control. She will try to persuade the Grand Priest to get rid of him, but the GP will still hold the tournament to test Kassava on if she's worthy of stopping him and because the Time Gods all banding together is sort of what he was trying to teach them in the value of mortals. This can also be changed a bit to, "GP did this solely because he wants to be entertained, and doesn't really worry too much about Marcato winning anyway." to further capture his original source material better.

-The other Time Gods will be mob like mentality towards Kassava and U7 alike. Like the cool kids bullying the new student on the playground, most of the banter will be centered around the notion that Kassava doesn't know of their world and how challenging it is. My idea behind this dynamic is that this will be how Kassava learns not to take things so seriously in becoming more like Whis' demeanor, in seeing them try so hard to stop her yet still prevailing in manners that are not too complex in strategy. Definitely need more feedback on this, would love to hear more ideas.

-U6 will be their only ally, opting to side with Kassava and co. due to the typical "U6 and U7 are buddies" stereotype from DBS. Their bond will come more in how U6's Time God will be like a "Joker" personality: a chaotic character that is a former Destroyer and hasn't fully settled into the prestigious candor of a Time God. His support for her in the tournament will start off purely as just a simple desire to see what happens when he helps the underdog and for the lols, but grows into an almost friendly rivalry with her. His character and bond with Kassava will help her understand that Whis' like mentality better, in how his full on sociopathic, meme ways will help her stay away from the extreme.

-U6's team will consist of the Time God that I have yet to full flesh out character design wise, and Kefla for sure. Kefla will be the character that will bond more with Vegetto and Gogeta, yet their dynamic in understanding each other is still an idea I haven't fully fleshed out and would love more feedback on. I did partly enjoy how Goku almost trained and somewhat mentored Caulifla in the TOP, and wanted to continue that idea in Vegetto and Gogeta mentoring Kefla, who views them more as obstacles to overcome. I'm thinking I'll keep the U6 team to just those two, but I am considering more ideas for a better story.

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And that's it guys! The big thing I'm starting off with here is just the basic story elements of things coming together. I still have much more I've probably forgot to put here, but if you see any problems with the visions up there, do feel free to discuss and critique them here.

I plan to eventually post another post regarding the general make up of each chapter, in order to iron out what needs to be fulfilled in action, plot, and atmosphere for the upcoming chapter. It will be the following one in here and will be regularly updated: I plan to fully have a general premise for each chapter before I start to write it out in order for me to effectively tackle the objective of the story better. Rather than just having a general "this is how the plot goes, these are how the characters are supposed to act, let me just make it all happen."

Thanks again for your time guys, and look forward to reading your responses!​
 

Vegetto

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Placeholder for Chapter Synopsis and Analysis.
 

Grey Star

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Beginning initial commentary. Spoiler mode, on.

I like the sound of where you're taking her character. Over the last 2-3 fanfics she's been in, this is an interesting direction for her to end up in, after what I dub the "Erased Timeline" where XV: Emperor's Return and Prophets of Fear took place in. It also sounds completely necessary for her job, since all the other time based characters thus far, Whis, Grand Priest, and TG!Bardock, have all shared the same traits you want Kavassa to develop into. I don't have much to say other than I look forward to it.

No comments other than hugely appropriate based on the source material, and hugely exciting.

You mentioned (back when you doubted making a sequel) that Trunks simply didn't have the power and ethic to be able to compete in the next tier that the fanfic was going to involve. Well, that's mostly true for all of Trunks appearances. He didn't have the strength to fight the Androids in the future so he went back in time to get stronger, and killed Frieza and King Cold because they had already been beaten in his timeline. In Cell's timeline, he got killed after defeating the Androids in a surprise attack. During the fight against Perfect Cell, he not only couldn't defeat Cell using his stressed Super Saiyan form, he died to the boosted Perfect Cell based on a random finger beam. And then he was the only person who could really hold off Goku Black using his new Super Saiyan 2 Mutation, yet he still had to run to the past to get help again. Granted, most of my knowledge of Dragon Ball is from second hand sources, but this is a repeat pattern. Heck, in XV2 he didn't have enough power to take on Putine alone, and got help from others, but still needed Beerus to deal the final blow. I imagine that similar to the Perfect Cell and Goku Black fights, Trunks will try to handle the enemy via some new transformation or some sort of big sword, realize he's not strong enough, and either get defeated or turn for help. You really could portray him as you had in XV2, the hero who refuses to back down from his morals, but is also incapable of finishing the job purely by not being strong enough. I imagine that his defeat in the tournament will come from trying to summon all of the power he can, possibly even trying to "force" himself into Ultra Instinct and making the exact same mistakes Vegetto did against Fused Zamasu, and then get vaporized by one of the last time Gods or even Marcato himself, the "Sacrificial Lion."

Random idea even, Marcato vaporizes all but Trunk's sword, blows Kavassa away to finish her during the fight, she lands next to Trunk's sword and falls unconscious. He then beats Veg and Geets into the fucking ground. Veg is struggling to see, and hallucinates Trunks kneeling by Kass, checking her pulse, sword pointed into the ground. He blinks and realizes the person he's supposed to be a father figure to is gone, and then preforms the fusion dance with Gogeta to form Gogetto.

If you want I can further develop any ideas for Trunks. He was my favorite hero in XV2.

I don't have much to say here. Other than random idea, Final Kamehameha + Soul Punisher (Combined Punisher?) to defeat him the same way Gogeta defeated Janemba. I trust that you can develop an interesting protagonist from the inkling of his character we had at the end of XV2. You kept Towa and Mira interesting, made Zamasu, Goku Black, and Fused Zamasu into extremely interesting antagonists with their rivalry with Vegetto, I believe you did well with Demigra, etc. Though, small suggestion. Keeping him as a central threat in the same way you did both Zamasu's, having him commentate and really drive part of the plot leading up to the other Time Gods banding together, probably spur the Universe 6 Time God to work with Kavassa out of spite (I imagine that the U6 God just randomly remarks "maybe I'll work with Kavassa for luls" and Marcato tries to go all "Worthless scum" Zamasu on him, and it ends up completely backfiring), and have him as a central presence through the tourney through commentary and moral arguments with the non-fighting cast would work well for cementing him as the ultimate obstacle. Sorry if that sentence was a lot to take in. Overall, I trust you.

One thing. Grand Priest mentioned in the end of XV2 that he wished he could replace Marcato nearly immediately, but couldn't. Having their relationship be of one where Grand Priest raised and trained him to be a god, and then on the first day of actual work Marcato revealed himself to be a complete, but irreplaceable failure, one that Grand Priest doesn't even try to justify, would keep the detachment intact. Imagined conversation.
"You call me a failure, yet you raised me from birth!"
"I'd fire you but you keep threatening to blow up the universe if I do so and I can't unwind that."

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Having the antagonists all be Time Gods makes a lot of sense considering your notes so far, I don't see any real reason to call it laziness if it produces better antagonists. Having Zamasu as the central antagonist worked wonders, even if there were a lot of diversions on the way to finally beating him. I just hope you can come up with 9 more Time Gods who'll be interesting.

I don't see why the Grand Priest couldn't upgrade the Super Dragon Balls into something even stronger. He upgraded Shenron into Super Shenron, so if he had the actual Super Dragon Balls I imagine the same process could work. I don't believe there's a name beyond "Super Dragonballs" where it wouldn't be getting ridiculous, but if you can come up with something feel free. Or, you could leave it nameless because Grand Priest "has only done this twice before, and once was for Zeno's amusement." A further idea, if you want to confirm my fan theory that the DM RP, XV Fanfic, and XV Prophets of Fear all occur in the same continuity but XV is the Future Trunks timeline and Prophets of Fear is the erased Future Trunks / Infinite Zamasu timeline, you could have Grand Priest bring in one of the Phobis Devices.

The tournament idea is great. I don't feel a need to comment on it, other than the idea looks very, very good. Reason for why Grand Priest just doesn't thanos snap the time gods for rebellion against him is spot on, but you'll have to trust in your reviewer's judgement that the argument that Grand Priest gives is logical and makes sense in the story, rather than just the author trying to excuse his fanfic idea. I trust you however.

The U6 God Joker (I'll use that as his development name) and Kefla sounds fine to me as the only participants in the tourny. An example of his reasoning for bringing only her along could be "what? She's like my version of Vegetto, she's the strongest fighter I could grab that hasn't died yet. I don't see you and Chrona bringing Bardock back for this or something. Also if I brought an army, wouldn't Marcato just do the same? At least this gives us an edge."

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In the order listed.

-Continuing off my ideas in the Marcato part of my feedback, having him think Kavassa is Grand Priest's attempt at a replacement because she's a mostly blank slate really solidifies him as an antagonist, same way Zamasu viewing Vegetto as a rival because of all the sinful shit Vegetto did and they fought, once.

-I really do like the idea of Grand Priest continuing the tournament because Marcato's technically following the rules of the tournament instead of just erasing him as something that forces Kavassa and Joker to work together. If you feel that's straying too far away from the source material, you can change the justification to be mostly about how Grand Priest is bored and Marcato's still willing to fight, and is technically doing it in a tournament legal way, so everything just works out well for his own (Grand Priest's) entertainment.

-I don't have much to comment on the mob mentality of the other Time Gods, and their subsequent defeats, causing Kavassa's worldview to evolve to one more like Whis'. It's definitely in the right direction, but I can't offer many more ideas on it right now. Apologies.

-Joker fulfilling the Destroyer stereotype of a full on sociopathic meme (who probably threatens to Hakai anyone who so much as slouches before the tournament) would also help push Kavassa to be more like Whis. It's another step in the right direction, and provides a new, interesting rival for Kavassa since Vegetto obviously can't be that for her anymore due to simple power dynamics.

-I already provided a justification for why Joker would only bring Kefla along incase you do decide to keep the U6 team to just Joker and Kefla. I don't really feel I can provide you more advice on whether to bring in more characters unless we had a direct and immediate conversation about it on Discord. That said, I like the idea of having someone fulfill the rival status that Kavassa could probably no longer fulfill for Vegetto, unless those two are still serious rivals. I get this weird feeling though that there'll be some form of shipping involve between one of the monkey men and Kefla, based on the fact that Kavassa was mentored by Vegetto and those two ended up together, Chrona was Bardock's teacher in some form and he was her husband. Do what you want though.

-Last thing. I feel like if each Time God in some form participated in the moral debates through the fanfic, since moral debates pervaded XV2 and the least memorable antagonists were the ones who didn't have any involvement in the moral arguments (Mira, Putine, and Mechabakura), it would increase their individual worth in the story.
 

Vegetto

Green Jacket
Thanks for your input Grey! The ideas definitely got me thinking a bit more on the overall plan, but the big one I really want to try and pick your brain more on is around Trunks.

I do believe I have a good handle on his character and impact in the original content that made him special, but I do believe I am going to need to speculate more on how to properly incorporate him. His purpose is easily overshadowed at this stage with Kassava as the time god and Vegetto + Gogeta being the main powerhouses that call back to the type of characters Goku and Vegeta are in the series. The story itself has a type of protagonist that basically needs a separate kind of hero, one that Kassava will be fulfilling in purpose. His second really optimal trait, the power he exhibits with a very mysterious background (IE, Trunks coming out of nowhere and obliterating Frieza and King Cold as a Super Saiyan is easily one of the most intense and exciting moments in the series for DBZ) will be a type of plot device we can't enact due to Trunks being so established in this universe as well as having no power comparison to Vegetto and Gogeta.

I am speculating it on it more, given I'm the only one who knows the full plot that I'm trying to accomplish, but the big question I'd like to ask you to flesh out as much as you're willing to is this: what makes you really enjoy Trunks? What about his presence and overall character just resonates so well with you?

It may not bear any fruit, but the more I hear about him that fans really thoroughly enjoyed and disliked, the more I can do him potential justice in capturing elements that help him shine in the execution of the plot.




Major update on Kassava, as time in RP with the Reality Vortex has really helped me see some potential development goals I'd like to achieve with her. Spoilers incoming, don't read ahead if you'd like to see the story without knowing the purpose behind the plot.

Kassava's character development towards becoming almost another Whis will be put on the backburner, as that is more of a long term goal that will be accomplished by many, many iterations of plot. Instead, I intend to follow a model where Kassava's development will center around the unfinished development of confidence from her first appearance in the previous story.

The Black Rose thoroughly fleshed out her will and drive to fight, where gaining a small taste of the same lust for battle like a typical Saiyan in Vegetto helped her not only establish a connection to him, but also in finding something of value she could resonate with. Most of the plot centered around changing from her will to always do things for others, into building more of that self growth and drive. However, towards the end of the story, that development was put on hold and actually was cut off once she became the True Super Saiyan God, and one could even argue that the reason for her collapse is that the rage she felt for avenging Genn and demanding respect from others is how she pushed too far. The story finishes with her becoming a god due to the Grand Priest seeing potential, thus she is definitely at a stage where she is slipping away from that core value of realizing her own, inner confidence due to others placing their beliefs and visions on her (Genn in his desire to see her become a god, and the Grand Priest for seeing her as the worthy successor to Marcato).

Thus, the model will change to her behavior in how under duress, she clearly will demonstrate those flaws in reverting back to demanding attention from others, especially Vegetto. The power of the True Super Saiyan God will be tremendous, enough to where it can overpower both Vegetto and Gogeta in UI in a sparring match where Whis has to step in and stop her. She will use that validation to see herself as superior when having to realize the threat of Marcato, and while she won't be arrogant, she will have her faith misplaced in the notion that she can brute force her way into victory.

So, the important development of the story in the beginning will center around Kassava being a little too concerned with outside influence and opinions with the pressure of the Grand Priest's hopes in her as well as the expectations of being a respectable god weighing on her mind heavily. This development will bridge into the romantic connection to Vegetto, often demanding his attention and love consistently. I will likely have him reciprocate it eagerly, given the two are in a very early stage of romance and will likely be at a point where Vegetto would feel better seeing Kassava feel better, despite not realizing the damage being done that would come forward in the fight with Marcato. I don't forsee this connection being a story that ends up straining their relationship, where in fact, it will probably serve as a strong motivator for Vegetto on a positive side until it fails in the fight against Marcato. In fact, an idea of mine is in how a lot of the development I envision for Gogeta's interest in Kefla may be centered around how he observes Vegetto and Kassava's happiness together. However, that idea potentially will fall on the backburner, as I still want to flesh out little details such as Kefla's actual age and interests. A suspecting hunch is that Caulifla and Kale truly are lesbian and potentially have zero interest in men, and if that were the case, then I'd want to respect the characters' core values and portray the connection in a different route. One that leads to more of a friendship, thus U7 and U6 have reason to help each other in later story arcs but also keeping the potential for GogetaxKefla if the source material around Caulifla and Kale gives me a good enough feeling that a relationship with a character with an age gap like Gogeta would be realistic.

Circling back to the main topic of Kassava's story (sorry for the deviation lol), the development builds Kassava in a manner where she is set up to fall. The entire build up would lead to a major character clash, where Kassava's defeat would spur her to find a new path in self worth and confidence. The jarring defeat would serve as a good catalyst to the training Whis envisions for her, and in the process that I won't disclose, she will attain Ultra Instinct in a manner that really resonates with the source material of "mushin", involving the philosophy of true clarity in combat. I hope to create a story in her 1v1 fight with Marcato that will not be rushed and will truly be an explosion/tapping into one's potential that really pulls readers in. Enough to where readers will really switch from, "Oh she got a random ass powerup" into, "Hell yeah, that's awesome! Kick his ass, Kass!"

The big climax will then be changed: instead of the two fusions vs Marcato, it will be all three. UI Kassava, UI Vegetto, and UI Gogeta will all fight in a 3v1 battle. The premise would give the audience hope, in how Whis and the other gods will comment that the favor to win is definitely in Universe 7's chances. The Grand Priest will potentially make a comment that their teamwork will prevail, and set the stage for a positive reinforcement that the hero cast has the advantage yet the Grand Priest won't be wrong on the final outcome. In a very intense, long, and choreographed battle, Marcato will win under very specific circumstances that I will hope will earn him "hated respect" from the readers.

The goal will be to distract the readers long enough for the strategy of fusion between Vegetto and Gogeta to slip under the radar, and the final battle will be Kassava stalling Marcato long enough for the Potara to fuse Vegetto and Gogeta into Gogetto.
 

~ Z ~

Black Jacket
Okay, after a while of reading this, I'mma toss out my ideas and see if you like em or not. Sit tight! Keep in mind, I have not read The Black Rose, so if I'm off with some ideas of mine, feel free to ignore them. I am taking your word with everything you put as well as your knowledge of DBZ as a whole. I won't go crazy in depth with DBZ stuff since I'm not an expert but I will toss out ideas and concepts you can work around with and sprinkle your DBZ stuff on it. With that out of the way, I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

I'm happy to know that your time in RV has given you interesting ideas and concepts for Kassava in your FF! I like what you are planning to do with Kassava and her overall progress for the story. Here are some of my thoughts and ideas that might help you later in the story. 

If you plan to have Kass in a similar mannerism to that of Whis, then you have to focus on her time with Whis carefully as well as his influence on her. Assuming you have that thought out, then having Kass in a similar ideology to Whis will come naturally. You can do this by having Whis train her and put Kass in a situation where Whis' words will come to play. For example, a battle/spar that Kass can't seem to overcome unless she follows Whis' example. This can also influence her confidence and even make her cocky to a degree. It will be interesting to see Kass learning Whis' training but then get too ahead of herself, showing that she needs to keep her emotions in check. This can be a see-saw effect throughout the story until the final battle where Kass can finally achieve a complete balance between the two. Overall, I like where you are taking this and am curious to see how you approach this. 

As for the romance between Kass and Vegetto/Gogeta and Kefla, I can totally help you from that standpoint when the time arises. However, it depends if you plan to make it a true budding romance or something that the reader can just say "aww" at. The two are very different and require different amounts of work, but I'll let you decide on that, so give it some thought and I'll help you any way I can! I don't mean to flex but I know a thing or two about writing romance; it's not like some random redhead's life trilogy revolved around it, amiright? 

:fan: <(coughkireandevelyncough)

Vegetto and Gogeta sound interesting, however, I would like to see your input more rather than nostalgia. It's nice that you plan to have little snippets of Goku-ish and Vegeta-ish personalities for the fusions, but remember that the fusions never had that much screentime (as far as I'm aware) to really develop anything other than a battle inspired personality. Kinda like.. a spur of the moment. I really like how you handle Vegetto's personality in RV and TFE, so if you keep it more or less similar to that, I think you'll be fine. I recommend fleshing out a little bit since this is a story focusing a lot on Vegetto/Gogeta as one of the main characters and their interactions with other characters. Fanservice is great but remember not to go overboard! From personal experience, too much fanservice will drown away any uniqueness you plan to do with the two characters and makes me wish you just use Goku or Vegeta. I know you got it in you, especially with how you handled Veg and Kass in RV and Veg with Kire/Leiji in TFE. love dat shit! Also, I personally like the idea of Vegetto/Gogeta enjoy a fight for what it is and I can't wait to read up on it. Simple things like this are the easiest to expand on, nice touch!

An idea I can spit out is giving these two a distinct quirk that strictly identifies them. An example can be Vegetto likes to pull pranks on his free time idk. Nothing relating to Goku/Vegeta but something Vegetto can truly call his own and that makes him stand out. It doesn't have to be something that involves fighting/sparring, but maybe how Vegetto acts naturally? It can be interesting if you can add this quirk to his fighting style. That will drastically make him more unique on top of keeping the status of his martial arts and his Goku/Vegeta moments. The same can be implied with Gogeta. It would be great to see Vegetto using his prankster moments to get the upper hand simply because the opponent thought a silly trick wouldn't work on him. But hey, that's just my way of seeing it, I want to see if you can think up something better.  :Interesting:  

This is the one I have been waiting to get to. After thinking it over for a while, I thought of a few ideas for Trunks and his possible roles in the story. After reading the plot and the added info with the last post you made, I will try to 'squeeze' Trunks somehow to fit the story and give him a more defined purpose.

The overall premise of this plot is getting into the notion that the Grand Priest finds value in how Universe 7 won the TOP. Much like the philosophical points Trunks made when defeating Zamasu in the Black Goku arc, the mortals banded together to overcome threats much, much bigger than themselves. First in the case of original Zamasu, then in the Time Patrol defeating the overly powerful reincarnation of Zamasu, and finally, Jiren being toppled by Goku and Frieza.

This is a great start, especially if Trunks had a hand in this ideology. If the point is 'banding together to defeat stronger foes', we can make it that this is the way Trunks believes battles are won. This is both good and bad since it's a nice standard for yourself but it obviously has its flaws such as not all battles can be won by numbers and sheer force. This can be a great eye-opener for Trunks when Marcato defeats Veg, Goge, and Kass. Maybe it can make him rethink his approach or change him entirely?

The story will wrap up with Vegetto and Gogeta using fusion to become Gogetto, who then kills Marcato in the finale to secure the win in the tournament.

This right here. THIS. I love it. I'm not sure if you have already thought about how this type of fusion will be possible, but here are my ideas of how this and Trunks can connect. 

Depending on how you want to play Trunks in the story, you can make him into the new 'Bulma', whereas he can build stuff and gather information from timelines/universes. Maybe somewhere down the line, Trunks overhears about an 'Ultimate Fusion' capable of overpowering Gods/Angels but the means of obtaining it are unknown to him and the cast. Trunks decides to dedicate some of his time and research to reveal the mysteries of this potential fusion. You can use this moment to kinda make the audience think about what he's talking about or if it's even possible/true. As time goes on, we learn about this 'Ultimate Fusion' (or w/e you're going to call it) through slips and legends (Depending how this story goes). Finally, when the climax is just around the corner, Trunks thinks it's possible to obtain such a fusion but it needs two very powerful energies (in this case, Vegetto and Gogeta), however, a problem arises! Vegetto and Gogeta are already fusions. 

From this point, you can have Trunks build a special armband/bracelet (w/e you plan to make it) for Vegetto and Gogeta while Kass stalls out Marcato for the ultimate climax. This gives the reader more of a "ohshit, is he going to finish it in time before Kass is beaten?! Will it work?! HURRY TRUNKS!" Once Trunks finishes his gizmo, he tosses it to Vegetto and Gogeta, explaining how it works. This can also lead a reference to the whole Goku/Vegeta and Majin Buu moment when Vegeta refused to fuse (but that's up to you). Then they make the Ultimate fusion to create Gogetto! It can be similar to that of EX Fusion from DBZ Fusions (The game that fuses 5 people at once.)

To add more suspense, you can have it that Trunks has no idea how long the fusion will last, the side effects, or if it is even strong enough to fight Marcato. Maybe it was a prototype that drains the energy of Vegetto and Gogeta or maybe Trunks thinks that the bracelet will not be strong enough to harbor the sheer amount of energy Gogetto has and breaks, returning them back to normal? Following alongside with the idea I mentioned before (Trunks' ideology), he can form a new belief that follows his research on the Ultimate Fusion. 

You don't need to have Trunks completely relevant from the very start of your story. I think it would be better if Trunks is showcased more during the middle of the story in order to build up the whole Ultimate Fusion. Maybe Trunks was away for a while and came back to tell the group about a mysterious legend he heard about "Ultimate Fusion". The gang thinks it's BS but as time goes on, Trunks begins to unravel more and more, much to the disbelief of the group. Maybe Whis and a few others know about it and help support his theories? 

Of course, this is all assuming you haven't already got something planned out for Gogetto from the start. xDD Maybe you can mix and match some ideas or replace them with new ones? Either way, I hope it gives you some thought about what to do with Trunks! I'll probably think of more later and post them here.

I REALLY love the idea of this villain since I'm a sucker for 'The perfectionist villain'. fuggin love em. As of right now, I think Marcato is going to work out pretty good if you write him similar to that of Tai Lung. Again, as I mentioned in the Vegetto/Gogeta section, don't make him 100% like Tai Lung and give him an interesting feature he can call his own. If I remember correctly, Shine told me that Marcato is your own original character and I'm super happy knowing you did this all on your own! See, making an OC isn't that hard! xDD But anyway, I think Marcato will be your biggest shining star if you write him carefully. Even better, if you play your cards right, you can turn him into a tragic villain by the end of it but that's up to you. 

Here's a tip if you plan to write a prideful villain. Try not to fall under the trope where the villain is an all around asshole killer to those who do and don't obey him. Let me explain... Marcato is an arrogant and prideful villain who simply wants GP and Zeno out the picture, yes? He's got people from all over helping his cause and has a genuine reason to hate Kass for not supporting him (his pride is hurt). Don't make it that he treats his supporters like crap (unless that is your 100% intention). The reason I say this is because a villain who is prideful of his ideas and plans tends to have respect for those who support him, albeit for selfish reasons. That and if he treats his supporters like crap, they are bound to betray him anyway. Those who betray him are not worthy of his respect and at that point, you can do whatever you want with them. xDD

Overall I want to see your progress with Marcato and I'll be sure to let you know the good and bad!

That's all I got for now, I'll be sure to reread the plot and the atmosphere a little more to get a better idea of the story as well as help give you some more ideas if you want them. I hope I helped you in some way and can't wait to bash your story help build your story! Happy writings Vegetto!  :fan:
 

ShineCero

Administrator
Staff member
So basically using the concept from Dragon Ball Fusion? Rather than Trunks inventing it, he could see it from another timeline or something like that.

Bulma created a new device called EX Fusion (basically an armband), which allows users to fused with one or more people. According to her, it was created to be superior to both Potara and Fusion Dance, and has no time-limits (meaning, the fusion can decide to defuse if they wish). I can easily see an arc about Gogetto not wanting to defuse with all the power going to his head.
 

Vegetto

Green Jacket
I'll tackle a bit of the other points later in the discussion, involving the characters and plot. I do appreciate you guys jumping in and your advice has given me some ideas that I'll expand upon after this first topic I want to touch on:

The fusion of Gogetto.

So, I do like the idea and concept surrounding the EX Fusions band, as the time limit for fusion has always been a bit of a crutch. Especially with the GT introduction of fusion draining faster if more power is used. I can't stand it, honestly lol!

That being said, I would prefer the climatic battle mostly center on Vegetto, Gogeta, Kassava, and Marcato as the main characters. The battle I envision follows how with their combined might, the three have an advantage over Marcato, but though intense execution of his insanely high battle intellect, he outplays them. I want the villain to actually feel like the underdog for that battle, creating a dynamic where you get to see all of them giving it their maximum, but Marcato's skill is the "straw that broke the camel's back" in the protagonists' defeat instead of Marcato simply outright stomping them with that skill.

The climatic battle should really key on that with all four having shining displays in that fight, while Gogetto's appearance is more of a 'oh shit' moment that ends the fight in a fun, cool way. If we went with your idea, Z, then the entire fight would lose intensity and drama due to everyone reading the functions leading up to it as, "when do we get to see Gogetto?!" Similar to how, while I enjoyed the final battle in DBS: Broly, I would've absolutely lost my shit more dramatically if I didn't know Gogeta was going to appear before going into the theater. I think I really want to capture that, where the first mention of fusion should make everyone lose their shit and get extremely hyped for the entrance in the next chapter because they weren't expecting it.

That being said, my game plan is actually in Vegetto's Potara Earrings. I think it's such a consistent but small detail that everyone will kind of "overlook" it, where I was thinking about trying to really suck everyone into immersing themselves on other details in the fight. Up until the last minute, where Vegetto realizes that they can force a fusion using the Potaras. He throws one of them to Gogeta, who puts it on, and that is what leads to the fusion while also slipping under Marcato's radar when being stalled by Kassava until it's too late. 

I even think about incorporating a fun little moment where before the battle, Whis gives some vague sage advice about how their strongest tool will be the one thing they least expect to help. Vegetto might be caught thinking about it when he's exhausted on the ground, and being frustrated at the meaning behind the advice enough to start saying Whis could've meant anything, he'll just comment that the most useless thing he can think of are the Potaras because they don't do anything for him now that he's fused as almost a joke. He'll go as far as to mention he should've taken them off the minute he fused since they're annoyingly flapping around, and then realizes their benefit in forcing another fusion. It'd be a good tool, I think, because everyone will also get confused as much as Vegetto on what Whis is talking about, and it'd be a good way to throw them off the scent of fusion for most of the battle because they might think Whis is talking about a type of technique or power that isn't as obvious as earrings dangling on Vegetto's ears. ;)

If there is a way to incorporate the fusion band, I would love to. I do think however, that there isn't a really good way to implement it without setting up the obvious Gogetto hype.
 

~ Z ~

Black Jacket
After thinking a few things over, I'll post my thoughts about the plot and the plot atmosphere. This one will be pretty short.

After reading it through, the plot looks very straight forward which is good. It looks as if you got your major points set as well as any important events leading up to certain points. I'll be sure to read your story carefully and see how you apply these points. So far, everything looks good, my only issue is this one paragraph.


So, every fight will progress in a manner like a real bracket style tournament, but if a fighter on U7/U6's team is defeated, they are out for the rest of the tournament. This idea of 10-15 characters versus 1, will allow me to create value for the antagonist in the fight, but also showcase certain individual fighters, as not everyone of the 10-15 will fight at once and it will allow me to dwindle down the cast of protagonists in the progression of advancement.


Maybe you are following the DBZ rendition of the fight but I don't quite understand the format of this tournament. Is it going to be a bracket style tournament or a free-for-all? Unless I'm missing something that happened in the ToP, I'm a bit confused. Then again, I could be reading it wrong or something. For now, I'm going to assume you are going to follow the ToP style from the anime (which is a free-for-all I think), but if I'm wrong, please correct me, I want to know exactly how this will throw down.  :pimp:

So far I'm very interested in everything you have presented in your plot atmosphere and hope you can match up to what you said. Remember, one thing is saying it and another is knowing how to properly implement it. I'm sure you can do it tho'. Obviously, my curiosity leans to that of Marcato and how each universe will aid him. As I mentioned before, I have a love for these types of villains, so I'm very excited about how you decide to handle him. Overall, the atmosphere is definitely something to keep people hooked. I'll be sure to read this one, however, I want to read the chapter to get a more in-depth view of this atmosphere. Once we reach these points, I'll be more detailed in my response. So, for now, I'll wait until you write the chapters before giving my detailed opinion on how you handled this.

Still hooked in tho', that's for sure.  :fan:

Now that you bring up the issue, I completely see your point! I assume you want to make Gogetto more of a 'surprise' for your readers. Kinda like no one expected it! Alright, I like that! As for how Gogetto is born, I think Vegetto's Earrings are a clever trick you thought up and I like this idea better. For some reason, it's cute to me. As for Whis giving his usual advice about how such a power can be obtained, why not say it in a way that can guide your audience but not outright spoil the Ultimate Fusion (This term is just my headcanon, I know you'll refer to them as Gogetto.) While I think Whis telling Vegetto that "the strongest tool is the one they least expect" is great since it builds a bit of curiosity from the audience, it can be a little too cryptic. While not a bad thing, keep in mind that some things might completely fly over the reader's head. It might sound cool in your head (Since you know how Gogetto will be born) but try to give one tiny hint as to what Whis means. 

An example can be, hypothetically, Veg loses an earring (somehow) and tries to get it back since it's basically a part of him, or so he thinks (A Vegetto without earrings is just not as cool lol) Whis can throw out his sage advice as Vegetto is getting his earring back and you can follow with Vegetto trying to understand what he means, getting frustrated. (idk if you can even punch an earring off tbh. xDD). Those who have a quick wit will probably pick up on that little hint but can't draw conclusions and those who didn't pick up on it will eventually put the pieces together once Vegetto figures it out. In the end, both sides are equally surprised, neither one expecting Gogetto to come out of it. Point is, make the hint subtle but rewarding to the readers who catch on to the point is what I recommend you aim for. 

I would not recommend my example lol, but something to hint that the earring is the key to this Ultimate Fusion while keeping Gogetto itself a secret. I feel like the payoff would be better for those keeping a close tab on your story and makes it feel like they right there with Vegetto as he tries to figure out what Whis meant. The surprise and big reveal will still be amazing. Careful wording will make this scene pop out as I imagine you want it to. 

Also, one last tip, try to focus the story through the eyes of one character. I'm not saying to disconnect the other characters but try to keep the audience on a solid path of who makes the biggest/major decisions in the story. I fall prey to this because I want my reader to understand and engage with ALL my characters but then it distracts from the plot and ultimately creates a confusion as to who is the main focus and why people should care. I doubt you'll fall under this hole but keep this in the back of your head since you have a lot going for both plot and atmosphere and it's easy to go overboard sometimes. But then again, you know your story best! xDD

As for the EX fusion band thingy, I'll play the game again to tell you how the game implements it so you can add your own spin to it. I'll be sure to think up some ideas and suggestions for you to pick at as well.

Those are a few of my thoughts, nothing too critical as of yet. Hope I helped out somehow! Keep thinking up ideas and don't be scared to scrap some entirely, it's part of the experience. I hope you continue to strive onward with your ideas and keep getting inspired by things around you. I can't wait to read more and I'll be sure to keep up as best I can. I'll also try not be super critical about everything (I tend to do that with stories a lot) unless you want me to. It's nothing personal, it's just me pointing things out. I kinda need to get that across so people won't hate me for 'not being very supportive of creative works'.  :sweats:
 

Grey Star

Red Jacket
Vegetto said:
I am speculating it on it more, given I'm the only one who knows the full plot that I'm trying to accomplish, but the big question I'd like to ask you to flesh out as much as you're willing to is this: what makes you really enjoy Trunks? What about his presence and overall character just resonates so well with you?

It may not bear any fruit, but the more I hear about him that fans really thoroughly enjoyed and disliked, the more I can do him potential justice in capturing elements that help him shine in the execution of the plot.

To properly answer this question, I'll need to find time in my schedule to reread the Potarra Warrior fics, specifically the two main ones, already reread the non-canon one. It's been on my to do list for forever, but I just can't find the time! Sorry I don't have anything for you, but I wanted to at least explain why I'm not able to answer this question. Really do want to reread them though, just can't find the time.
 
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