ShineCero said:
Before I placed my analysis of your work, I want to emphasize the importance that power levels are such a non-factor here in my criticism. As long you are able to tell a good, compelling and engaging story, then you can literally have Appule putting up a fight against SSJ4 Gogeta, if you hit those points.
Sounds good, and thanks for the feedback! One little addendum I will put regarding this point, however, is that while I won't get into specifying specific power levels, I will actually have a bit of focusing on making sure power at the core of each character, is respected and plays a crucial role in combat. One of the greatest and immersive mechanics introduced into Dragon Ball was the aspect of characters being measured accordingly, through power levels. However, the villains constantly underestimated their opponents on relying on that surface level analysis, while at the same time, those power levels still provided a solid foundation for how a character could outmatch another or why a villain was so overwhelming (IE, Frieza stating his power level of 1 million in his second form obviously allowed the audience to fully understand just how much of a mountain he would be as a challenge).
With that being said, I feel as if one of Dragon Ball Super's major follies as a story is in the fact that they have taken "power levels" and completely thrown them out the window. Being more interested in producing hyped fights, I feel as if their battles lack the sort of anticipation and build up that came from a time when the story did focus on making sure any sort of result or outcome of a fight was based on logical conclusions about power levels, and the plot devices arising from those characters needing to overcome/falling to certain gaps. A perfect example is in the Super Saiyan Blue Vegetto vs Zamasu fight, where the hype surrounding his return as a character was completely shot down from poor overall fight delivery and lack of any sort of rational reasoning. Almost every fight in the Black Arc represented this sort of delivery, of removing logical reasoning to the fight and creating the hyped situations purely for fan service. Thus, the reason why that arc felt so forgettable in the long term scope of things: Frieza vs Goku was immensely superior not because it lasted for so long, but because the story was focused on the match up of Frieza having a slight edge in raw power at their maximums, but wasting all of his energy at the beginning of the fight. Cell vs Goku was intense because while the two fought evenly, everyone knew that Cell was not using his full power and that made him extensively scarier seeing the main hero Goku having to struggle against that restricted power. Everything is rooted around logical conclusions about powers, so I will be focusing on making sure that fights have a sort of logical sense about them because they require it in order to immerse people. And when it proves to be a problem such as Trunks vs Broly, then do keep in mind that not every fight in this story is meant to be an immersive experience. In fact, some fights are meant to be small little snippets meant to improve the overall expectations of another, which will be addressed below somewhat here:
ShineCero said:
[*]Trunks-Genn relations is weak. To considered Genn a friend over this seems to be far-fetched. :think:
[*]Trunks-Vegetto conflict seems confusing. Don't know if this was introduced from the previous story that examined their relationship or something that's introduced here. If the latter, you need to expand on that, otherwise, it's exposition dumped onto the reader with no warning or build-up.
[*]
Starting with the first point on its own, the only thing I do want to question specifically is that the "friend" portion of this critique is denying the relationship being established. Albeit, the intention is not to solidify that they are "best friends" or deep philosophical connections to one another, but I feel as if the last two chapters combined should have made it reasonably fair to assume that Trunks and Genn do share a friendship, regardless of how surface level/deep it is.
However, I'm assuming the real criticism surrounding this is more on the notion of Trunks stepping up in defense of Genn purely on their friendship clause, which would indeed be a problem. This portion of the story is real time based, so I wanted to use more imagery and overall escalation of argument to answer this point, where in simple terms: Trunks isn't purely fighting Vegetto on the notion that he wants to defend Genn. In fact, he is shown to be indecisive more than anything in his confusion at the damning revelation of Genn being a rapist and murderer, where even though he believes in Genn, he is calling for Vegetto to only stand down so they can examine the whole story before making a judgement to clearly indicate his stance on the matter is not solid. The only reason he actually stands against him in the fight is because Vegetto directly insults him, not only calling him an insubordinate brat but treating him like an inferior.
That is the main motivation behind his fighting, which I had planned to exposition more in the following chapter when Trunks is recovering in the hospital and recounting the fight to interested parties (aka, Kassava
). The first story does, indeed, set up a little exposition for it, but this overall motivation between the two for fighting is relatively new. One of the main aspects of this story originally was going to surround the Vegetto vs Trunks philosophy, where Trunks having his timeline being ignored by Vegetto's need to improve and find a challenge was going to be the major conflict on the hero side of the story. However, given both of their warrior and developed personalities of being able to control themselves, I personally felt a hard time coming up with a way to build up this story to the point where their fight would've been deeply connecting to the audience because I don't see either of them realistically reaching a boiling point that would resonate with the audience at the climax. Even the fight itself, I felt it was more respectful to the characters to show that even when they reached a tipping point, their emotions were still somewhat repressed and neither one of them fully snapped at the other.
So, with their fight lacking in that sort of emotional turmoil from a character truly breaking down and exploding on another in dialogue, I believed it would be better suited that this fight be more of a minor issue within the Patrol, where it would be a development of character relations between the Patrol but not one of the major, deeply emotional connections the audience makes towards them. As in the end, Trunks would still recognize the need Vegetto has towards his ego needing to be checked, but still be upset over his timeline being constantly ignored throughout the time between the first and this story. Causing the issue: Trunks doesn't actually believe Vegetto is trying to belittle him, but the overall introduction of Kassava into the Patrol because he failed in giving Vegetto a challenge and Vegetto ignoring his request to stand down in regards to Genn make him have the overall "feeling" of being treated as an inferior, even though logically, he knows that Vegetto does care and is just doing what he feels he needs to get done. However, in the moment of Vegetto's weakness in his pride getting the better of him and blatantly insulting Trunks, the overall negative feelings Trunks had finally have a solid voice to back them, and that's why the two fight even though both parties knew from the start that it was wrong. Most of the major points above are established quite clearly in the chapter, but while lacking the overall depth to them some other stories focus on, I think the big problem you're referring to was in the lack of including the major clause of "Trunks acting on more complicated reason" because the exposition is coming at a later point in the story.
In any case, I would enjoy hearing disagreement on that execution or even overall different opinions on how you would've written out to respect both characters. But even so, these two points do give me the understanding of the importance that I follow through in making sure Trunks' motivations are made quite clear when he next presents the fight as a talking point in the following chapter that presents it.
ShineCero said:
[*]Vegetto's characterization seems to remind me of Multiverse Vegetto in some point.
[*][*]
That's because it actually does follow a similar path Multiverse is taking him. The overall situation of Vegetto being unquestionably superior to every other being in the universe creates the dilemma of fulfilling a challenge clause in his motivations, where he obviously lacks an opponent that gives him that sort of rush. Dragon Ball Super is also exploring this with Goku in the new arc, where one of the only character agreements I have is in his overwhelming desire to fight strong opponents getting the better of him at times and putting something at risk because of it.
Vegetto, being naturally susceptible to that same drive, then has the complexity of Vegeta's character added into the mix, where not only should their fusion naturally seek a challenge, but also seek to prove himself in the eyes of a stronger force, which drove Vegeta immensely to the point where he recognizes it as his greatest character asset. However, this is also unanswered: if he doesn't have a strong enough opponent to challenge him, then he also doesn't have a stronger opponent he can seek to prove himself against. Creating an even larger conflict in terms of motivation, and without an answer, he starts to become agitated.
Multiverse has written him out to the point where he is shown breaking down mentally over it, only recovering after small tantrums over humiliating ego points such as being easily defeated by a magician using a perceived "cheap" magic trick. My rendition will have similarities, but the main difference will be in that Multiverse Vegetto strives to not only fight all of the strongest fighters, but dominate them as well (I'm expecting him to be the villain because he snaps after having to sit through so many matches as a spectator). While this Vegetto will still maintain his extensive discipline as a warrior, yet also understand that he needs that humiliating loss for himself so that he doesn't fall victim to believing himself invincible. The notion of questioning, "Well, why doesn't he just go and get Whis/Beerus to slap him down?", is then answered in the chapter when Vegetto explains his need for a fighter to consistently give him that development, because he needs a method of developing not an objective (Think of how Goku and Vegeta see Whis and Beerus as objectives to beat, not actual rivals or characters meant to consistently develop them to achieve that objective.)
I won't explain anymore, as that would spoil important plot points to his character, but yes, he should remind you a bit of Multiverse's take on him. Just, a little bit of a different direction and not so extreme in the portrayal of his character conflicts.
ShineCero said:
[*]This is rather nitpicking, but the scene of Vegetto having Goku/Vegeta thoughts is silly; Vegetto was stated to be brought back to life as his own person; he should have his own thoughts and no trace of Goku/Vegeta speaking. I understand this was a symbolic thing, but it still felt weird.
[*][*][*]
Personally, I felt it was actually good character symbolism because when it comes to spoken words in your mind, they sometimes naturally have a tendency to follow a voice that you would expect to hear them from. IE, if you are thinking about criticism that sounds like something your mom would say, you sometimes hear her voice as the one speaking the words in your head when you actually recount the words. Where everyone's had some degree or point in time where a voice in their mind wasn't from their choice.
This is then in Vegetto, who also keep in mind, is fresh off from the first story in where he only just overcame the issue of his identity crisis surrounding the ideology that he is nothing more than a shell created by those two. So the symbolism is meant to show that a little bit as well, in the fact that he still would subconsciously think "That sounds like something Goku/Vegeta would say", instead of fully embracing it as his own personal thoughts. A small little character point, one that I was planning to exposition out a little more at a point in time where Vegetto has the chance to reflect on this conflict a little better at a different point in the story.
This was a little better received from readers who had the same understanding because they read the first story, so if you want to criticize that connection, I would suggest and seeing to whether or not this sort of connection delivers. But in regards to nitpicking, I actually don't think that's a fair term. I can definitely see how you can feel out of place without that connection, so exposition at a later time will help readers who are jumping head first into this story for sure.
ShineCero said:
Positives:
- The fight was written well-written. Good job.
- The execution, while questionable, seems to be more consistent and balance. This is better than Chapter 8's execution.
- Pacing was average.
Overall score of the chapter: 3/5
[*][*][*]
I would like a little more explanation for these points though, especially the Pacing point. However, I feel as if they might be addressed a little better after the response up there. Thanks again for your feedback, let me know what your thoughts are in response to the points above!
